{"id":181413,"date":"2016-12-22T13:36:56","date_gmt":"2016-12-22T13:36:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.meydan.tv\/article\/interview-between-khadija-ismayilova-and-svetlana-alexievich\/"},"modified":"2021-10-29T13:41:58","modified_gmt":"2021-10-29T09:41:58","slug":"interview-between-khadija-ismayilova-and-svetlana-alexievich","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.meydan.tv\/en\/article\/interview-between-khadija-ismayilova-and-svetlana-alexievich\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview Between Khadija Ismayilova and Svetlana Alexievich"},"content":{"rendered":"
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\n This article was first published on
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\n Khadija Ismayilova is one of the most famous investigative journalists in Azerbaijan. In September 2015 she was accused of tax crimes and imprisoned for 7.5 years.\n<\/p>\n

\n After an international campaign in defense of Ismayilova, a court reviewed the sentence and suspended the sentence. The journalist was released from prison. Later, the court once again lightened the sentence.\n<\/p>\n

\n The journalist and her lawyers asserted that Ismayilova\u2019s case is a political one, given that the Radio Liberty correspondent researched corruption in Azerbaijan, including within the ranks of the ruling family.\n<\/p>\n

\n From Ismayilova\u2019s publications, it became clear that the Azerbaijani government gave the president\u2019s family rights to a lucrative gold field. In 2014 Khadija Ismayilova wrote that Aliyev\u2019s two daughters control one of the country\u2019s main mobile operators, Azercell, via an offshore company. Also, according to her data, the Aliyev family controls a minimum of six luxurious hotels in Baku, and Aliyev\u2019s daughter Leyla has a luxurious residence in the Moscow suburb, Rublevka.\n<\/p>\n

\n Khadija Ismayilova was interviewed by laureate for Nobel Prize in Literature, Svetlana Alexievich.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 Tell me, Khadija, even in your voice one can hear such energy as would indicate that you still have a strong potential for resistance. And tell me, why is it that recently women are the people who resist, the people who have managed to break free from this despair that at present has overwhelmed and paralyzed very many of the intelligentsia, very many honest people. You have Savchenko, you have other examples. What do you think this means?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 To tell the truth, I don\u2019t really like discussions based around gender, but since I don\u2019t believe in a difference between, that is, that there are serious differences, but\u2026\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 Khadija, I\u2019m not
\n <\/b>
\n
\n speaking of gendered differences
\n <\/b>
\n
\n , I\u2019m speaking of why women seem to have broken out, women, and when I was covering the war in Afghanistan and then met with woman journalists who were also writing about the war in Afghanistan, more often than not these were women. This isn\u2019t a matter of
\n <\/b>
\n
\n gendering the discussion
\n <\/b>
\n
\n . The thing is, it might simply be that we haven\u2019t previously been doing this, and we don\u2019t have this despair that men have.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 I don\u2019t know, maybe this has something to do precisely with wars. Because very many men, they either went to fight, and some didn\u2019t return. After the end of combat in Karabakh, for example, when the conflict was frozen, many men left for Russia or for other countries to pursue a wage, in principle the mobile and energetic part of the population left. And women wound up having to do very many things. Maybe this is one of the reasons. Maybe another reasons is that we, women, sort of believed in the idea that for women it\u2019s easier, women aren\u2019t imprisoned, they don\u2019t treat women so harshly as men, etc. For some reason we believed this.\n<\/p>\n

\n This turned out not to be true. They imprison women. They intimidate women. They treat women poorly. There have been woman activists against whom they\u2019ve used electroshock and torture. In reality, yes, statistics really do show that the majority of investigative journalists are women. I don\u2019t know the reasons; sociologists would probably understand the reasons a bit better. But yes, this is a fact \u2013 women have wound up having to take a lot on themselves in recent times.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 Do people tell you that you are an idealist?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Oh, people often tell me this. People often tell me: \u201cYou\u2019re a romantic, you\u2019re an idealist\u201d. I remember, I was called to the Ministry of National Security (MNS) \u2013 this was before the reforms, before the arrest \u2013 they called me to the MNS, tried to push a document on me, get me to sign it, saying that I won\u2019t write any more about the murder of the journalist Elmar Huseynov. And I sat in that office for a whole three hours, and every other question they told me that I am a romantic. Yes.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 And how did you answer them?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 I smiled at all of this, that is to say, the entire time I turned this all into a joke and said that probably this really isn\u2019t such a bad thing. I somehow asked the investigator whether he was planning to ask me on a date, since he\u2019s talking so much about romanticism. Yes, I joked around. But it\u2019s as if they don\u2019t believe in the future. They live in the present day. They think that one needs to thieve as much as possible. I think that their problem, among other things, is that they don\u2019t believe in their own future, nor in our collective future. If they believed in the future, they would think about their reputation, not about how to get rich as quick as possible.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 But, tell me, there\u2019s a second thing,
\n <\/b>
\n
\n idealism is all well and good
\n <\/b>
\n
\n , but you likely were also told, when you began to unearth these things, that you might simply be killed. Do you not fear death?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Well, you know, from a dramaturgic point of view they sort of constructed the story incorrectly. They began with the most powerful weapon. The worst thing that can be done to a woman in Azerbaijan is to shoot a film of her; that is, to make a film of her in intimate situations and then blackmail her. This is worse than if they would just kill you, imprison you, torture and so on. And they did this at the very beginning. After this, nothing is frightening. You know, not at all frightening.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 But I know you got out of that situation is a dignified manner, and probably this actually
\n <\/b>
\n
\n did good for you with many people.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Well, you know, I didn\u2019t know that this, that is, this tactic, this rebuke that I put forward, would work out. I didn\u2019t know. I didn’t know how I should react. This had happened before with other female journalists. And they declined to struggle, they abandoned altogether their work and so on. And when this happened to me, we had discussed this before the fact, we had joked about this, and I even bought a travel tent, so that we could do this there, so that they couldn\u2019t film us. You know, Muammar Gaddafi travels everywhere with his own tent, yeah? And I bought a tent, well, not the sort that Gaddafi has, of course, with much less space, of course, but there it is, we\u2019ll we in the tent, so that you don\u2019t get filmed. But in the tent is was uncomfortable \u2013 dark, cramped, etc. So we decided, that is somehow it ended up how it did, somehow it ended up how it did.\n<\/p>\n

\n But I didn\u2019t know how to react, and when this all happened, when this letter arrived, I remember that first was rage, and rage was stronger than fear. Then, after a few hours, the fear began. But not that they would publish this; rather, fear that I might give in. And what did I do \u2013 I immediately announced the topics of my investigations. I worked then on three or four topics simultaneously. I immediately announced the topics of my investigations, so that afterwards there was no possibility of backing down. That is, I prohibited myself from backing down, because to back down is to allow them to do more and more with us. To back down is to allow them to feel they are the victors. To back down means that afterwards you have to live with this.\n<\/p>\n

\n And when I place this fear on the scales, and the problem exists, that is, the fear exists before the problem even takes place. You fear this, fear, fear this, and then, when it all takes place, then you\u2019ve already got nothing to fear, it\u2019s already passed. But if I would have backed down, and they wouldn\u2019t have put this film out there for general viewing, I would have had to live with this fear for the rest of my life. I didn’t want this. I don\u2019t want to leave the country and then live with the feeling that, like now, for example, after this situation with the blackmail, I don\u2019t want to leave the country and then live all my life with the feeling that I had to run, it would be frightful for me, I ran, they managed to make me run. I don\u2019t want to live with this feeling.\n<\/p>\n

\n You know, things didn\u2019t work out in our favor, didn\u2019t work out for our country, our people. We lost this war, occupied land, very many refugees, displaced people, and very many people living with this loser complex. I don\u2019t want to live with a loser complex connected with my personal life. I will make the decisions that I can make myself, and I won\u2019t allow them to force me to feel like a loser for the rest of my life.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 And how do you feel about betrayal? When your boyfriend couldn\u2019t hold out, betrayed you. This was probably even harder? After all, life is made up of these things, not only of the big things, that you are an investigator. All the same, you come home, drink a tea, lie in bed alone. And there was this person that you trusted, and suddenly it turned out he\u2019s a traitor.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Well, you know, I don\u2019t have any explicit facts that this person betrayed me. But the situation\u2026 there was a funny situation with that guy who gave a statement about me, a complaint, but this wasn\u2019t that instance. We were friends. That is, this wasn\u2019t that instance of intimacy. But before this there was an instance, at the time of the blackmail, and to this day people ask me whether I\u2019m sure that this young man that I was with wasn\u2019t part of this plan. Put I\u2019m not sure, I don\u2019t know. But I made a decision that this is sort of very personal. I made a decision that I don\u2019t need to allow anyone very close, all the way to my heart.\n<\/p>\n

\n I made this decision long ago. It sort of\u2026 that is, that instance at the time of the arrest, it\u2019s not that sort, in no way connected with the heart, has nothing to do with affairs of the heart. But the situation, that is, they try to get to any person with whom I\u2019m friends or with whom I have relations. Several people even told me that they were approached, and we have to break off relations.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 Tell me, when you were in prison, when you knew that it could be five, even seven years, were there really no such minutes when\u2026
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Well, seven years is seven years. Nelson Mandela was in for twenty-seven.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 No, you are nevertheless an idealist in a good sense, yes.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 Yes, but you know, one can concentrate\u2026 I\u2019m probably just an optimist. I love to see water in the glass. That is, I love to speak of the full half of the glass. But\u2026\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 Yes, yes, in you there is such an innate strength.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 When you come up against problems, it\u2019s better to think not about the problems themselves, but about how, what to do in order to resolve this problem. And if it\u2019s not possible to resolve it, I think all the time about nice I am, I endure even this; how strong I am, I can get through even this. And I like to think about this as if, this is somehow not very modest, but it\u2019s better not to concentrate on the problems themselves, but rather on how you will solve them, or how you will get around them, or how you will endure them. And then, sort of\u2026\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 And in prison, for whole days on end?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 And in prison the exact same. In prison humor helped a lot. My colleague Ayaz also works at Radio Liberty, he was in the Ministry of National Security prison, and he\u2019s always telling tales of his life in prison. He was in solitary confinement at the Ministry of National Security for almost a year, and he told jokes about solitary confinement, about how he joked all the time with the jailors and so on. All his stories helped me a lot, the whole time I turned everything into a joke. For example, the first night, I remember already in solitary, in quarantine, where the mattress was all lumpy and it was very difficult for me to lie on it, and all the time I thought about\u2026 at first I thought that this is very uncomfortable, I\u2019ll have to be like this for a very long time, and then I thought that I wanted to start doing yoga \u2013 and here you are, a mattress for yoga. For example, even when there are problems with the toilet, there they have Asian style toilets, etc., and all the time you think about how to extract something good from this bad situation. When you concentrate on this, it\u2019s much easier, and all the time you turn everything into a joke, you say that you like cold food, you say that you like\u2026 \u201cYou\u2019re not going to open the window? I like it. I like it in the punitive cell, because here I can see the stars through the window, and this is impossible in my cell.\u201d\n<\/p>\n

\n And when they see that you aren\u2019t suffering\u2026 My girl friend told me, this isn\u2019t at all an anecdote, this is a story that really took place, she lived for a long time in Moscow, and their neighbor lady \u2013 somehow a sexual maniac wound up coming after her into the apartment block. He pushed her against the wall and began to try to undress her, and she was dumbfounded by all this, she was in shock, and instead of \u201cHelp!\u201d she began to yell \u201cThank you!\u201d And a rapist\u2019s strength is drawn from resistance, and when this resistance isn\u2019t there, he doesn\u2019t see that the person is suffering, he loses all desire. And he just hit her on the cheek and left.\n<\/p>\n

\n Our law-enforcement agencies are like this rapist. That is, they have this strength that is drawn from resistance, suffering. And when they don\u2019t see tears, don\u2019t see resistance, don\u2019t see that a person is rattled, they lose their desire. I think that I can even give many examples, but one concrete example from the punitive cell. I wrote an article in the newspaper and I was sent to the punitive cell, and the next day they brought me back, brought me onto a rug before the prison warden. And when I entered the room, the first think I said was, \u201cIf you think that it\u2019s tough for me there, this isn\u2019t true, please, leave me there; I like it, it\u2019s quiet there, I can read and see the stars from the window. That is, when I\u2019m in my cell, I can only see these stars and moon on your epaulets. And so please, leave me in the punitive cell.\u201d He got rushed, he had planned to offer a deal: you don\u2019t write anymore and we won\u2019t put you in the punitive cell. But the deal was already undermined, because I liked it in the punitive cell. After this I wasn\u2019t put in the punitive cell even once.\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 You don\u2019t get tired from this endless resistance?
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 You know, each time when I see\u2026\n<\/p>\n

\n
\n \u2014 There are no moments when; I have moments of just dismay in the face of human stupidity, dim-wittedness, this sort of impenetrability of vice, which completely surrounds us. Not long ago we believed in a democratic, new Russia, and now it turns out that this Russia already doesn\u2019t exist. And now it seems that the Middle Ages are coming.
\n <\/b>\n<\/p>\n

\n \u2014 It happens, why not? It happens. For example, after the blackmail, that is, after we found all these cables, this was a very depressing moment, when we discovered the cables leading from the room and from the bathroom. It\u2019s sort of strange, I was prepared for the fact that they would shoot the bedroom, but I wasn\u2019t prepared for them to also shoot the bathroom. We uncovered these cables, and afterwards for a week my body stopped working, I couldn\u2019t, I didn\u2019t go to the toilet, I didn\u2019t go to the bathroom. That is, I couldn\u2019t just go to the bathroom. I already lived in a different apartment and so on, but for me this was so, I don\u2019t know, everything just stopped for me, my whole system stopped.\n<\/p>\n

\n And then one of my former students came, that is, a colleague, and she said, \u201cLet\u2019s do some research into the gold fields\u201d. This was that moment when I thought that this was it, that not one woman would want to do this anymore, that nobody would want to do this. And then this student came along, a woman, and said, \u201cLet\u2019s do some research\u201d. And I don\u2019t know, I probably owe my life to this girl, because suddenly my body started working, everything opened up.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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